help beat 650 brute force

[bstaple30]

HELP!!! I have a 02 660 grizz with hmf utility exhaust dyno jet kit and twin air filter I thought my grizz ran good I've raced my uncles 07 700 grizz and can outrun him fairly easy but my dad just bought a 05 650 brute bone stock and we lined them up this weekend and I jumped him out of the hole but after about 50-75 feet he just pulled around me and kept pulling up to about 50mph we had to let off running out of room I need some advice what do I need to do to run with the brute? H emay be quicker but the grizz is still the best. Love the site!

[10 point hunter]

You sound like another guy on this site who was trying to beat a Polar 800. I have a 02 Grizz myself and love it for what it is a low end grunting machine. You will have to do some major mods depending on your machanic skills like new clutch, piston and cam ect. The Grizz is a fast machine for what it is, a utility. You are up against one of the faster machines. The newer machines are even quicker and most have twins which are hard to beat from mid to the high end. The Can Am 800 is probably one of the best in speed and handling but lacks in the diff lock area. Challenge them to hill climbs or mud bogs were the lower to mid end is superior with the diff lock it's hard to beat otherwise plan on spending some money. Your riding a Grizz and they will never beat it they can only join it. Good luck

[~Muckboy]

Great post 10-point! We need to hear from you more often in here. :-)

X2 on what he said.

The Grizz will not beat a lot of other ATV's in a head to head flat line race, it's not clutched that way. You need to remember that the Grizz is the best all around ATV there is. Tell them that a drag race, you can beat me, but lets ride ALL day long and see who's whining about their back that night. Let's climb the roots and rocks and through the streams and see who's cussin' at their 4x4 capabilities. Let's see who's machine needs to go into the shop all the time because it's breaking down.

You can mod it like you do, but until you get a different motor in there, you will be beat off the line every time. That's just the way it is....but in the long run....that quickness, means nothing....and it's the ONLY ammo they have against your Grizz.....don't let them have it!

[armatt06]

The Brute force says it all in its name. It is all about power. The grizzly is a much more refined machine. You don't have to beat him in a race, just enjoy your grizzly.

[kwd12]

brutes and can ams smoke me, but I pass alot of them up in the mud hole and tow thm back,,, rockn the grizz 700

[StupidNewbie]

If you wanna beat a brute:

686cc Bore kit, with true 11:1 piston
Stage 1 or 2 cam from hotcams, or the webcam all around (not mudbuster)
Port Polish
Exhaust
Open the airbox
Rejet.

That should beat them no prob. You wont outrun it forever, as it has a higher top speed, but once you hit the limiter, shut it down, you should be quiet a few lengths on it by then. The next option is to work with the clutch. Either a new machined sheave, or cut the guides on the fixed plate, and bend the tips in 2mm. Then space the primary about 1mm. That will give you more bottom end, and about 7-8MPH on the top. From there you could stroke it, but that takes out logevity out of the motor. Could also go with a bigger carb.

Like stated above, the grizzlies are some of the slowest quads out there. We will beat a Honda, thats pretty much it really. Popo will beat ya, Brute will beat ya, AC will beat ya, KQ will kill ya, Can-ams will kill ya. Its just not a speed bike. Its the GC, good handling, finely tuned suspension, and quality that gets you through each trip, and to the end of the trails.

[Lloyd Smale]

my 700 has a ehs lid and filter a clutch kit a exhaust tip and a ehs controler and i just ran with my nephew who has a 4 year old 650 brute. I was taking him out of the hole by about 4 bike lenghts and after that we ran about identical. this was down a 2 mile dirt staight flat road. Either my 700 is exceptionaly good or his 650 is exceptionaly bad.

[big7]

My brother has a 05 prairie 700 and I beat him all the way to 65 on my speedo before I let off, his read 68.
He is bone stock with only 400 miles, 25" tires, and My 07 Grizzly 700 is stock with 26 in terracross tires, exaust tip, hanger mod with pod set at 60.
I jump him out of the hole by 2 lenghts than we both hold it to about 45 then I start pulling off, by 65 on my speedo im @ least 4 lenghts ahead and still pulling.
Also my friend owns my old 05 Brute Force 750 and it's the same deal with him.
By reading all the other post from members saying they cant out run a brute 650 or 750 I was a little relucant to even post this, But hey it's the truth!! So in reality I guess every f-wheeler has a different story.
Maybe sometime in the near future I can get this on video, but until then, maybe all hopes not lost.

[Yamaguy]

From what I have seen lately racing myself is that any weight difference between the riders can make a big difference on the outcome of a race. My 08' Wolvy beat a 700 Grizz when my buddy was riding it.

[big7]

Something else I forgot to mention, a couple of my friends have Grizzly 700's and it's the same deal when I race them.
One of them has an 08 camo and the other has an 09 camo, in a stright out drag race I easily beat them both.
For some reason the 09 is faster than the 08 about 2 or 3 lenghts in a 600 ft streach.
But I beat the 09 as bad as he beats the 08.
I think it has a lot to do with the way you break them in.
Im just saying they all run different, im just glad to have one that runs good

[countryboy8602]

Originally Posted by StupidNewbie

If you wanna beat a brute:

686cc Bore kit, with true 11:1 piston
Stage 1 or 2 cam from hotcams, or the webcam all around (not mudbuster)
Port Polish
Exhaust
Open the airbox
Rejet.

That should beat them no prob. You wont outrun it forever, as it has a higher top speed, but once you hit the limiter, shut it down, you should be quiet a few lengths on it by then. The next option is to work with the clutch. Either a new machined sheave, or cut the guides on the fixed plate, and bend the tips in 2mm. Then space the primary about 1mm. That will give you more bottom end, and about 7-8MPH on the top. From there you could stroke it, but that takes out logevity out of the motor. Could also go with a bigger carb.

Like stated above, the grizzlies are some of the slowest quads out there. We will beat a Honda, thats pretty much it really. Popo will beat ya, Brute will beat ya, AC will beat ya, KQ will kill ya, Can-ams will kill ya. Its just not a speed bike. Its the GC, good handling, finely tuned suspension, and quality that gets you through each trip, and to the end of the trails.

Maybe I'm missing something here... I'm new to the grizz and you know a lot more about em than I do but umm... I have a hard time understanding why most shrug off the Grizz as being a slug speed wise compared to others.

IMO they've got fairly decent power, and know first hand that my 08 Po Po 800 struggled to get by the Grizz 700 (with me-180lbs on the Po Po, and my 250lb Father in law on the Grizz) on pavement, both stock, the Po Po fully broken in and the Grizz with about 100 miles. Granted the Po Po was about 200lbs heavier stock, but neither of us could believe it.

My brother has a 700 Po Po, and haven't raced them yet but know for a fact by seat of the pants feel the Grizz 700 will beat it. He also has a Cat 650 H1, and the thing is a dog that can barely spin its tires in loose gravel, wouldn't be a contest. Can't see AC's 700 being too much faster, hp wise it should be similar to the Grizz, and is much heavier... so would have difficulty beleiving it would beat the grizz.

The King Quad... stock to stock I've heard the Grizz can keep up if not beat them until getting into higher speeds due to the speed limiter. Would a VDI or Dynatec removing the rev limiter not make a difference here?

It also sounds like the install of say an EHS performance package (pipe, controller, filter, racing lid) will add 6-8 rwhp to the 700 Grizz, so that would translate to what... 10hp at the crank? Therefore, 45 stock crank hp plus 10 hp equals 55 hp, 5 more hp than the Brute Force, and significantly more than a lot of others. Would an increase such as this not allow the Grizz to beat a stock King Quad quite easily? Or give a stock Brute (50hp) or say a Can-Am 650 (55 hp) a run for their money?

Sorry for the book, I realize the OP was referring to a 660 but am trying to learn more about these things, including the 700. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Yes I understand they're not the fastest, but they certainly aren't dogs and I don't think they get the credit they deserve in the power dept. Power aside, there's definately a reason the Grizz has won so many shootouts/awards.

[jake72]

Originally Posted by bstaple30

HELP!!! I have a 02 660 grizz with hmf utility exhaust dyno jet kit and twin air filter I thought my grizz ran good I've raced my uncles 07 700 grizz and can outrun him fairly easy but my dad just bought a 05 650 brute bone stock and we lined them up this weekend and I jumped him out of the hole but after about 50-75 feet he just pulled around me and kept pulling up to about 50mph we had to let off running out of room I need some advice what do I need to do to run with the brute? H emay be quicker but the grizz is still the best. Love the site!

you already got him beat you have a grizzly

[StupidNewbie]

And 800 or 850 popo are gonna beat ya stock for stock. You should have no issue beating a 700 popo by a length or two.

As far as the ACs go. You will beat a 650, be close to a 700, and the 951 is going to eat you. Now if its an older 700 (same as a KQ) with a VDI you will lose.

The issue with the KQ is the factory built in detuning in the bottom end. The grizz is far less detuned all around. So stock for stock, its the grizz outta the gate, since the KQ is detuned. So the grizz gets a quick length or two on the KQ, once the RPMS climb, and gets out of the detuned zone, the KQ pours the power on. And will over power the grizz. let alone the KQ is a faster top speed bike (not by too much).

Its not just about the HP with the bikes. Things like weight, and gearing, and power band come into play here. Here is an example from lyles dyno over at VDI. Now not all dynos are the same, and you cant follow just the numbers. But just look at the curves.







Now you cant go by the numbers hard. The KQ and teh Grizz dyno starts at 15MPH, the Brute starts at 0. So ingore up to 15MPH for compairison sake. The numbers are fairly close, but different days etc tough to tell exactly. But you might have a +- 2HP difference that each bike coulda put down, and this is single bike testing only. The next one might do 4 more HP or 4 less. Who knows. But the you can get a jist from this.

The KQ has the flattest Powerband of the group. It tapers off due to high injector duty cycle stock. People put an injector outta the 1800cc twin cruiser in, and the power band flattens right out through redline. Stock the KQ injector runs at 86% duty cycle. Start adding fuel, and you hit 90%, add a pipe and more fuel and your into the early 90s. Tough for it to keep up. Thus the curve starts to taper.

But if you look at the grizz, it really starts to drop power when the load is added. Much like the BF does. However teh BF just has the power in the start to get those lengths on you. And most races dont go for 3 miles, so you dont actually hit the top speed. Thats why the BF is so much faster in say your 500' drag.

Now as far as your adding a pipe and such. This will help alot. However when they rate the HP gain, thats a peak gain. And it happens at one instance in the dyno. So dont buy a product because it says it will give you 10HP or 11HP. Because thats not always the best products. For straight up fuel, easy tunability and deadly customer service, you cant go wrong with EHS. Now I dont know all the numbers, but if EHS did give you 10HP, its gonna be a good 10HP. They put a lot of time and effort into tuning the box. So if its 10 peak, but gives you an average of 5-6 elsewhere, isnt that better then say someone elses 11HP peak, but 2-3 elsewhere? I know it doesnt work out exactly like the 2-3 elsewhere theory, but I hope you get what Im saying. The amount of time (unless perfectly clutched) you spend in your peak power, isnt very long. So its not always about peak HP gains, or total HP, but rather whats around that band, and in that area. And what gains you get there.

If your looking for upgrades go EHS all the way. But if you plan on going with extreme motor mods (12.5:1 compression, extensive cam changes, etc etc etc), go with a VDI. I say this because you are gonna dyno tune, and AF tune that machine. And your gonna be doing some timing changes etc. And it just comes all in one box. But for most guys out there, who maybe put in an 11:1 piston, and a stage1/2 cam etc. The EHS will serve you much better, as its easier to tune, and gonna give you less grief. I have a VDI, havent put it in yet, but im expecting to have it on the dyno for most of a day to make sure its tuned properly. Thats a lot of $. And to do it by the seat of your pants, is impossible. Thats where EHS has done the base map homework already for you, and you can tweak it slightly for how your perticular bike runs.

[countryboy8602]

I generally get what your saying, great info SN. Have seen the hp charts before, they're certainly interesting for comparison purposes. I'm not concerned with drag racing as its something I rarely ever do, I think the stock Grizz has more than enough power to keep up and have a blast on. It does sound like the EHS stuff is a good way to go should one feel the need for more power. When I'm done with tires, wheels & winches I may look that way, along with maybe something like a dynatek CDI to remove the rev limiters.

[StupidNewbie]

Yeah I had a VDI from before in my KQ, so ill use it, as its gonna do both the fuel and timings in one box, instead of EHS and Dyna. And its only $100 for me to get a new harness to run. So Its the best I can do for the money.

Some of the power things isnt always about drag racing. And like I said its not all about power that clutching (and design) play a big role in performance. Id like to see a compairison of the bikes to roll from say 20MPH and maintain a steady speed to get the CVT to settle in, then hammer it. Thats where I think some of the other bikes accell in the performance over the grizz. However, reliability, and versatility, you cant beat the grizz.

And sure the grizz has more then enough power. I mean we used to run 250s, and if you had a 350 you were a big bore back then. So its not like we need it, we just want it.

Im just a little less then satisfied with the grizz in the power department, since I came from a mild tuned KQ. EPI Clutch kit (OS tires, HE kit, with stall), Yoshi pipe, opened airbox, and VDI copperhead. Id say I was laying 42ish RWHP down. now im down to 30rwhp.

[MTgrizz]

In my opinion the cheapest way to improve the performance of the grizz is by adjusting the clutch. There are several threads on how to do this on the forum. I believe that you can shim the clutch on a grizzly to effectively gear it down. This gives will make it accellerate quicker and feel more powerful but your top speed will suffer some.

I changed 4 of the stock rollers in my 700 with 4 from a 660. It raised the rpm where the clutch engages slightly and the shift points. I hits harder off the line and accelerates faster. It cost me about $30 for the rollers/weights and grease etc.. My brother out ran me on his grizzly by about 4 lengths at 50mph with just the weight change.

My 700 never ran as good as my brother's from day one (same year, we weigh the same, stock tires etc..). The only thing I can attribute that to is differing fuel pressure. I added a Dobek fuel controller and with a little more fuel at idle and the bottom of the rpm range I gained a couple lengths.

[Teh Wicked]

The cheapest way to beat those quads would be to buy an older 400EX or something for like $1500...Keep your grizz a ultility machine, dont try and make it a racer...

Guy with trucks try this too, they have this huge ass truck and want it to be fast in the 1/4 mile...Well its not going to be, can it made to be fast? YES! with Lots and lots of money, lots of comfortability sacrifice, and alot of breaking parts. When in the beginning if you want to go fast in the 1/4, just buy a 87-93 Ford Mustang for $2000, dump in another $3000 in work and do some of it yourself and click off a 10.xx 1/4

[one--o--six]

i can't tell you what it takes to beat a brute with a 660, but with only a pod mod, ehs lid, and a slip on my brothers 700 spanked a stock bf750.

[07grizzlymud]

Let you know in about a month but I.ve got a 700 and am looking more to the 800 candham ha ha

[Mighty]

I had an 08 700 Grizz and sold it to get a 700 Rhino. Side by sides just weren't my cup of tea so I sold it and was planning on buying a BF 750 because of all the good things I read about it. Went to my dealer last Friday to take one for a ride and I look behind me to see the sales manager coming out with an 09 700 Grizz. I rode the BF then I rode the Grizz. From the seat of the pants the BF felt like it would kill the grizz. To my surprise the SM said; "lets line em up". I was on the BF while he was on the grizz. We counted to 3 and let em go. I on the BF jumped about a bike length ahead and stayed there. I could not beleive it. We ran back the other way and the same thing. If I would have been on the grizz I would have bet that the SM was sandbagging. I don't know if this 09 is faster than what my 08 was but it's a runner. I did notice that the Dynatek cdi has a different part # for 09 and 10's compared to the 07 and 08's. Speed wasn't the deciding factor on getting the grizz but the overall better feel of it was. It rode and turned better than the BF in my opinion.