[CanadianKodiak700]

The kit Deal sells actually includes slugs and "slippery" washers too. And as you said, is pretty expensive and doesn't really allow for fine tuning for yourself unless you spend even more money on what you want. I honestly don't know what to think about what Deal is doing and it seems to make some sense but his kit seems to be clearly intended for areas where the main riding is mud/water bogging, wheelies and drag racing open areas. Meaning, good low end multiplied torque (face machining), quicker engagement (slugs) and then the potential for adding top end speed by way of the channel machining and larger roller weights. The quicker engagement is not something I've personally felt was needed and honestly, that is going to wear down your wet clutch plates quicker as well. Top end speed is not something I desire either as I'm almost always in low to mid-range. So the slugs and oversized roller weights are something I don't necessarily want or even need and I'm not running size 31" tires that are very heavy. And as reogem stated, Deal and someone else are playing with machining of the secondary... which is also something a user on GC has been doing for a couple years now but has not publicized it yet. Also, JBS is the one who came up with the slippery washers for the secondary. I've always just made sure my springs can rotate and never saw a need for those washers.

One item that Deal has not addressed, which Jim touched on, is what has his mods done to MPGs? Every time I've tried to get an answer on that, no one knows or seems to care. Again, that tells me those users are not out strictly doing trail rides where MPGs are something that becomes important. Not to save money on fuel, but to know you can get to that 100+ miles range in a day if needed because there are no fueling stations around.



This is what the cut cam plate looks like, not my picture but saved it from someone posting it, most likely on here, GC. I've personally never played with one and others in this thread might be better at giving a full understanding of where it makes a difference.

View attachment 102655

Yes you are correct, I forgot to add slugs and washers, and I agree with you 100%, washers are more of a gimmick, and slugs have good and evil about them, but I'm most cases, not needed.

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[griz7]

I was talking to Mr Deal, he said his starting ratio is lower than Coops without the shims 2.8to1 to 3.1 to 1, also better midrange with smoother belt transfer because he does not change the belt taper on the belt side, hmm, His kit is $600 comes with greaseless weight sliders, spring either from EPI or UTV engineering, wet slugs, secondary washers, I asked him about the washers he said they help with the backshifting allowing the sheave to move much smoother under the spring, not sure how these guy's come up with this stuff but all sounds good on paper, lol, we only have 50 ponies to work with with the Griz 700 so clutching mods do help by putting the power you have where you need it for your riding style and you will feel a difference, but you are not going to gain any more HP with these mods.

 

[reogem]

The secondary "slippery washers" are nothing more than snake oil being sold by carnival hawkers.
The secondary only rotates about 10°. The backshift statement is completely off. If there is clocking tension on the spring it will increase the backshifting. Similar to clocking the main springs on fly weight style CVT's.

 

[RedRocket]

@reogem the way you describe the function of the secondary spring makes complete sense. I really felt those "slippery washers" were just nonsense, your explanation and logic confirms that for me.

 

[Ridgway81432]

I was talking to Mr Deal, he said his starting ratio is lower than Coops without the shims 2.8to1 to 3.1 to 1, also better midrange with smoother belt transfer because he does not change the belt taper on the belt side, hmm, His kit is $600 comes with greaseless weight sliders, spring either from EPI or UTV engineering, wet slugs, secondary washers, I asked him about the washers he said they help with the backshifting allowing the sheave to move much smoother under the spring, not sure how these guy's come up with this stuff but all sounds good on paper, lol, we only have 50 ponies to work with with the Griz 700 so clutching mods do help by putting the power you have where you need it for your riding style and you will feel a difference, but you are not going to gain any more HP with these mods.

I suggest asking Deal more pointed questions, is his ratio lower or better, there is a difference. The starting/factory pulley ratio is 2.5:1 so the number is higher and the low end is better, right?
Is it 2.8 to 1 or 3.1 to 1, that is a huge difference so is his technic that variable?
Is his ratio change from the machining or the different weights due to variability of the weight sizes. In the past MANY fought greaseless weight as James recommended sanding on them for fitment.
If he does not change the belt face angle he is producing COOP's early machine work, so does Deal machining result in lower top speed?
Smooth belt transfer is actually from having the correct weights for the torque magnification at max torque production of the engine, as the engine transitions from making torque to making H.P. I use the cut cam-plate and COOP's altered belt face angle to stay in the high torque production r.p.m. of the engine.
James offered plastic washers years ago then used 'Just Because I Say' as his evidence....have you seen what a belt goes through when engine r.p.m. is applied? I don't think there is any way a plastic washer has influence when the belt is going through this much abuse, and this is the garage not on the trail;

Then here is some discussion and ideas of combinations I have installed.

I live in the mountains and ride to elevations causing a 54% reduction in engine output, so magnifying torque is important, and can be done raising the ratio.

 

[griz7]

I suggest asking Deal more pointed questions, is his ratio lower or better, there is a difference. The starting/factory pulley ratio is 2.5:1 so the number is higher and the low end is better, right?
Is it 2.8 to 1 or 3.1 to 1, that is a huge difference so is his technic that variable?
Is his ratio change from the machining or the different weights due to variability of the weight sizes. In the past MANY fought greaseless weight as James recommended sanding on them for fitment.
If he does not change the belt face angle he is producing COOP's early machine work, so does Deal machining result in lower top speed?
Smooth belt transfer is actually from having the correct weights for the torque magnification at max torque production of the engine, as the engine transitions from making torque to making H.P. I use the cut cam-plate and COOP's altered belt face angle to stay in the high torque production r.p.m. of the engine.
James offered plastic washers years ago then used 'Just Because I Say' as his evidence....have you seen what a belt goes through when engine r.p.m. is applied? I don't think there is any way a plastic washer has influence when the belt is going through this much abuse, and this is the garage not on the trail;

Then here is some discussion and ideas of combinations I have installed.

I live in the mountains and ride to elevations causing a 54% reduction in engine output, so magnifying torque is important, and can be done raising the ratio.

In your first vid you show the belt in the secondary moving in and out as you get on/off the throttle, not sure if its just the vid or not but it looks like your belt is twisting as it sinks into the secondary.

 

[CanadianKodiak700]

The"twist" you see looks to me to be just the shadows as the belt travels up & down the sheave. I watched it over and over and that's all I really see.

 

[griz7]

The"twist" you see looks to me to be just the shadows as the belt travels up & down the sheave. I watched it over and over and that's all I really see.

Yeah maybe that's what i'm seeing to, thanks

 

[CanadianKodiak700]

It's funny that we're talking about Deal, And the last couple days in one of my Yamaha Facebook groups a guy in my town mentioned that the next upgrades for his bike are going to be a kit from Deal. I commented and said I thought he was going to go with Coop Sheave. I prefer personally to have my bike tailored to me not generic for just anyone else, And the I prefer to buy parts individually and save money not buy a so-called kit for parts that I don't need like Deal offers. Well, he invited Deal to the FB Group. (I've since left the group, I can't stand his bs and ridicule of guys with little knowledge that are trying to learn.) Right away, he attacks my comment on it being cheaper to buy coops sheave. lol

Notice he has to say he includes all this junk in his "kit"

On another note, he machines the weight channels deeper to make room for his oversized greaseless rollers. The overall gap is still the same when you mill out 1.5mm of material to make room for 1.5mm larger rollers. No need to replace them to go greaseless considering the OEM rollers use a self lubricating plastic cover that can be used with or without grease. But doing all Deal about this... Your will instantly become an A-hole bashing his products. Lol

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[Ridgway81432]

The"twist" you see looks to me to be just the shadows as the belt travels up & down the sheave. I watched it over and over and that's all I really see.

The twist may be more of a side force roll, the sides of the belt being squished together narrowing the belt width.....I showed that for other to see the belt flex from the force of the secondary spring and the pull from the primary, under load on the trail I bet the belt goes through different contortions.
The inside side of the belt went slightly deeper in the pulley, that's what I think causes the shadow.

 

[reogem]

It's funny that we're talking about Deal, And the last couple days in one of my Yamaha Facebook.....................
... Your will instantly become an A-hole bashing his products. Lol

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That is typical of Facebook patrons.

 

[griz7]

It's funny that we're talking about Deal, And the last couple days in one of my Yamaha Facebook groups a guy in my town mentioned that the next upgrades for his bike are going to be a kit from Deal. I commented and said I thought he was going to go with Coop Sheave. I prefer personally to have my bike tailored to me not generic for just anyone else, And the I prefer to buy parts individually and save money not buy a so-called kit for parts that I don't need like Deal offers. Well, he invited Deal to the FB Group. (I've since left the group, I can't stand his bs and ridicule of guys with little knowledge that are trying to learn.) Right away, he attacks my comment on it being cheaper to buy coops sheave. lol

Notice he has to say he includes all this junk in his "kit"

On another note, he machines the weight channels deeper to make room for his oversized greaseless rollers. The overall gap is still the same when you mill out 1.5mm of material to make room for 1.5mm larger rollers. No need to replace them to go greaseless considering the OEM rollers use a self lubricating plastic cover that can be used with or without grease. But doing all Deal about this... Your will instantly become an A-hole bashing his products. Lol

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He didn't seem rude or ignorant to me, he answered all my questions, he just didn't know that I have a bit of experience with the machined sheave, he should let buyer's pick and choose what they are wanting to suit there riding style, not all want a aggressive kit, and should be happy to tell you and offer a combo that would work for you and his machined sheave, kinda didn't like the fact that he had noted his kit was the better deal over Coops, I like Arnie, he so good to deal with and took the time to explain what would work best for me on my Griz and riding style, his work is second to none.

 

[CanadianKodiak700]

He didn't seem rude or ignorant to me, he answered all my questions, he just didn't know that I have a bit of experience with the machined sheave, he should let buyer's pick and choose what they are wanting to suit there riding style, not all want a aggressive kit, and should be happy to tell you and offer a combo that would work for you and his machined sheave, kinda didn't like the fact that he had noted his kit was the better deal over Coops, I like Arnie, he so good to deal with and took the time to explain what would work best for me on my Griz and riding style, his work is second to none.

Yeah, as soon as I stated questioning his facts, he got rude with me, save very arrogant. He tried to say that his kit is a better deal than Coop's when it's actually not. Shipping his kit within Canada is actually more expensive than coop shipping his to Canada. As for all the other crap he includes, I can order for myself with free shipping if I wanted it.
The part that really pissed me off was in one fb group, 2 different guys were asking tons of cvt questions, it was clear they had zero experience with it, one even said it was his first ATV ever, but had used his brothers bike and got the
Mudding bug right away first time out so he bought his own and wants to set it up for mild mudding and trail riding.
Deal and one of his buddies were making fun of this guy for wanting a mud set up but still has stock tires. Instead of guilding him in the right direction and helping him.

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[griz7]

Yeah, as soon as I stated questioning his facts, he got rude with me, save very arrogant. He tried to say that his kit is a better deal than Coop's when it's actually not. Shipping his kit within Canada is actually more expensive than coop shipping his to Canada. As for all the other crap he includes, I can order for myself with free shipping if I wanted it.
The part that really pissed me off was in one fb group, 2 different guys were asking tons of cvt questions, it was clear they had zero experience with it, one even said it was his first ATV ever, but had used his brothers bike and got the
Mudding bug right away first time out so he bought his own and wants to set it up for mild mudding and trail riding.
Deal and one of his buddies were making fun of this guy for wanting a mud set up but still has stock tires. Instead of guilding him in the right direction and helping him.

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That's sad, a good powersport guy in the business of selling mods should be focused on helping customers, sounds like the guy just needed some guidance and a step in the right direction, not be mocked at, Mr Deal will only have a small group of customers in his own click with that work ethic, maybe Mr Deal will step up and be more supporting, will make a big difference in his customer base.

 

[CanadianKodiak700]

That's sad, a good powersport guy in the business of selling mods should be focused on helping customers, sounds like the guy just needed some guidance and a step in the right direction, not be mocked at, Mr Deal will only have a small group of customers in his own click with that work ethic, maybe Mr Deal will step up and be more supporting, will make a big difference in his customer base.

Even if he did, he's already lost all my respect. To the point that I left 2 groups on FB that he's a member of. No sense of me being a member there if I can't help others without his BS input. I better places to spend my time like on GC and KO.

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[Ridgway81432]

The camplate is the 1 item i dont know what the process is as far as whats being done to it. To my understanding, Coops cam plate mod is what adds top end speed if you have the ponies for it.

The picture of the cut cam-plate above is tough to understand as its a new part and shows the side opposite where the weights rub.
The tabs resulting from the cuts have been welded closed and the center cuts are hard to see, and hard to understand.
I have an old video that might help.....
To help with your understanding, its not 'what' happens its 'when and how' the what happens that we change. The primary pulley has a stock distance between the sheaves, and the shim increases that distance by moving the cam-plate out which allows the movable sheave to start further away from the fixed sheave so the belt starts lower in the primary for a higher pulley ratio. A stock cam-plate has ramps the weights rub across which are straight/flat in plane angle to the movable sheave so the shim mod prevents the movable sheave from traveling close to the fixed sheave at high engine r.p.m. which reduces the top speed at max horse power produced.
Remember 'we' like the increased distance between the sheaves from the shim at take-off but don't like the shim influence at high speed so we are counteracting the shim influence by changing the cam-plate, mod #2. You must determine 'when' the trick is to happen then 'how' you want it to happen, and the 'when' is determined by identifying the point on the cam-plate you want the weights to encounter the different angle of attack influence.
Remember the engine is making/building torque which can be magnified and horse power cannot be magnified. That is the reason I work within the of limits of the torque curve for top speed and have no concern for h.p.
In the video I turn the cam-plate over for you to see both sides and how the rub marks show on a new cam-plate I rubbed in. You can use a sharpie to color the surface to see where the weights start at rest, then go to a desired speed (not higher or you screw up the mark) then back to zero several times to wear the sharpie mark off. That helps you determine how far to cut down the ramps for the point of bend for the new ramp angle(s).
Notice I measure the distance in for the bend(s), I can match the amount of shim or add more bend than shim. I can also decrease the speed which the new cam-plate ramp angles kick in. I have several cam-plates for what I want on any day.

 

[braapy_patty]

The picture of the cut cam-plate above is tough to understand as its a new part and shows the side opposite where the weights rub.
The tabs resulting from the cuts have been welded closed and the center cuts are hard to see, and hard to understand.
I have an old video that might help.....
To help with your understanding, its not 'what' happens its 'when and how' the what happens that we change. The primary pulley has a stock distance between the sheaves, and the shim increases that distance by moving the cam-plate out which allows the movable sheave to start further away from the fixed sheave so the belt starts lower in the primary for a higher pulley ratio. A stock cam-plate has ramps the weights rub across which are straight/flat in plane angle to the movable sheave so the shim mod prevents the movable sheave from traveling close to the fixed sheave at high engine r.p.m. which reduces the top speed at max horse power produced.
Remember 'we' like the increased distance between the sheaves from the shim at take-off but don't like the shim influence at high speed so we are counteracting the shim influence by changing the cam-plate, mod #2. You must determine 'when' the trick is to happen then 'how' you want it to happen, and the 'when' is determined by identifying the point on the cam-plate you want the weights to encounter the different angle of attack influence.
Remember the engine is making/building torque which can be magnified and horse power cannot be magnified. That is the reason I work within the of limits of the torque curve for top speed and have no concern for h.p.
In the video I turn the cam-plate over for you to see both sides and how the rub marks show on a new cam-plate I rubbed in. You can use a sharpie to color the surface to see where the weights start at rest, then go to a desired speed (not higher or you screw up the mark) then back to zero several times to wear the sharpie mark off. That helps you determine how far to cut down the ramps for the point of bend for the new ramp angle(s).
Notice I measure the distance in for the bend(s), I can match the amount of shim or add more bend than shim. I can also decrease the speed which the new cam-plate ramp angles kick in. I have several cam-plates for what I want on any day.

Lucky to have such knowledgeable people who are willing to share.