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Orange spring a bit too much?

13K views 77 replies 15 participants last post by  Vincent 
#1 · (Edited)
Just finished reassembling my bike after servicing my secondary sheave and installing an orange EPI spring. Went for a short ride to a near by sand pit. All I can say is Wow! The torque in high range is incredible, I need to lay off throttle going up sandy hills cause I'm spinning too much. Spots where I'd bog in 4wd hight range, now I power threw with ease. Incredible difference! Backshift is much improved.

Problem comes from just cruising around. The engine revs way more and it's just loud and annoying now.
The deceleration is also way more aggressive. Rear wheels are always on the verge of locking up when I let of the throttle. That could be dangerous if your not prepare for it. I'm also concerned about ill effects on fuel economy, with all that reving all the time, I'm sure sure my fuel sipping 550 is now going be a pig. Maybe I just need more riding time, but my first impressions were mixed at best.

So what's next? I really don't what to reinstall the original spring as I feel it's too weak for my needs. But the orange spring is better suited for much larger tires , or hardcore mudding . Think I need an in between stock and the orange spring. Maybe I have other options to consider then just changing the spring again.

Any advise or insight would be appreciated. Thank you
 
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#2 ·
You really don't have any other choice on springs. Might be able to find some other supplier with a spring in between the orange and blue.
What roller weights are you running? By your sig they must be stock. Upping to 18's might help with the cruising rpm's.
 
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#3 ·
They are the stock weights. I was thinking exactly that, getten some 18g weights.
 
#4 ·
When I put my JBS sheave and purple secondary spring in my 700, I had the same issue. I originally went with 18g weights and I hated the extra revs while cruising. The bike seemed like it was revved past the best spot in the torque curve when I would get on the gas. I bumped up to 20g weights and now I'm very pleased with how it performs. In the end, I wish I had just stayed with a shim mod and left it alone. I'd have saved some money.
 
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#5 ·
Ordered some 660 weights (5km-17632-00) x8
Hope in mellows things out.
 
#8 ·
Looking through some spring info. If you can find a Dalton pink. That spring has more/ better force at the installed lengths that the stock 550 but less that the EPI orange.
 
#9 ·
Can't find much info about it. It's not even listed in the Dalton website.
Only found this and seems to be equivalent to stock.
 

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#10 · (Edited)
Just got back from a good 20 mile ride.
Did some tight technical rough twisty trails, to crossing swamps and rivers ( quad almost got swept away) to some mild speed trail cruising, and hight speed logging road cruising. Had my cheap digital tachometer to observe the differences in revs.

For rought, tight technical stuff this set up it perfect. Climbing steep hills and crossing swamps is awsome to.You always have plenty of torque on the demand in high range. So that's positive

The issue as mention before is cruising. I've gain around 500 rpms across my cruising range. These number are all approximate and in high range 2wd.

15mph = 4000rpms
20mph = 4600rpms
30mph = 5700rpms
40mph = 6100rpms
50mph = 6500rpms

So ya cruising around sucks. It's like I lost my overdrive and now I'm stuck in plain drive all the time. But all is not lost. I feel confident that 18 g weights will make all the difference and get this set up working perfectly. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Got back from our Canadian capital yesterday.
Took a longer detour to pick up my new 18g weights. Even though I was exhausted from a long day of travelling I pushed threw and manage to install the new weights in 90 min. Went for a quick ride to play in my near by sand pit yesterday , and today I went for a much longer ride to test everything out.


I'm very pleased and excited to say that everything turned out awsome! My rpms droped by 500 rpms threw out the cruising range. l have excellent back shift, and more pull then my stock spring ever managed. It's really surprising what a well set up little 550 can do. Even gained almost 3 mph on the top end witch was unexpected. While I was at it I also installed a new freshly oiled air filter.

Loaded up a few pix just for fun.
 

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#13 · (Edited)
Going to be doing more riding today. I want to do a bit more testing of various terrains that I've often ridden before the spring and weight mods. I'm also going to be monitoring fuel economy closely. Hopefully I haven't sacrificed too much mpg with this set up.
 
#14 ·
Hey...Vincent..Glad you are finding something you like.

The 2011 griz 450 ships with 14g weights. That thing rev'ed horribly. I install 16's in it. Made it a much more ridable machine.

I run 20's in my 700 griz with my franken shaved sheave. Stockers are close to 22g's. I liked that set up plenty of low end and no top end loss.

Yesterday getting my Kodi ready for S Dakota. I decided to finally degreeeeeasssse it and take out the 30's weights that it ships with. Installed some 20g weights. Will test it out today. I wanted to measure the secondary spring force but ran out of time..didn't even look at it. I'm speculating that it is the same as the Griz 700. Anyone know or heard of the force on the Kodi spring.
 
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#15 · (Edited)
Thanks for sharing some of your experience and info on your set ups. I'd appreciate hearing more updates on your 700 Kodiak's progress. Heck just post it here. We'll just guess and say that your secondary spring is simular to an EPI orange as to stay on topic. :wink2:
 
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#16 · (Edited)
Went for my morning ride, the first 10 miles were terrible rough and slow, climbing steep hills, tight trails, over logs, bolders, threw swamps etc....all in low range, average speed was only 3 to 6 mph

Next 10 miles was moderately rough at time but overall better trails. High range with speeds of 15 to 25 mph

The last 10 miles were logging roads in reasonably good condition. Speeds were 30 to 40 mph

Total mileage was 29.6 miles and used
1.25 gallons of gas so that's an average of
23.7 Mpg.

Converted to metric is 47kms using 4.7 L
Witch is 10 L for 100kms.

That's reasonable fuel economy considering the first 10 miles of driving kinda sucks. I can easily live with that. Mite even try only driving on the smooth trails for one ride just to see what it's best mileage can be.
 

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#18 · (Edited)
Racked up 600 kms threw all kinds of terrain since the orange spring and heavier weights were added. Everything holding up well with an average of 10L / 100kms ( near 24 US mpg) fuel economy, with an aggressive driving style.

I've read on the official clutching thread that heavier weights won't gain top speed. Well here is a comparison using the speedo for reference.

Stock 16g weights and spring, no shims
100km/h (62mph)

Stock weights and spring +1.5mm shim
91km/h (56mph)

Stock weights, EPI orange spring + 1.5 mm shims
88km/h (54mph)

18g weights, EPI orange spring + 1.5 mm shims
95km/h (59mph)

Thought it was worth sharing.
 
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#19 ·
Great info vincent....I went from 30g weights in my Kodiak to 18g weights with purple epi spring.. night and day power. No longer have to use low range in the mud.like stated above the revs are high when cruising. I'm waiting for my sheave to get back from getting milled and going to install 20g weights. With the purple spring the back tires are right on the verge of locking up going down hill in 2wd. Only down fall is bad mpgs
 
#20 ·
Thanks Vincent...
The slower top ends are a result of the shims which you already know.
Lighter weights use more HP for the CVT to shift completely out. Heavier springs use more HP for the CVT completely shift out.
Adding the spring makes it harder for the engine to hold the top speed.
Adding the heavier weights make it easier for the engine to hold the higher rpms that maybe out of the optimal torque range. Once the CVT is shifted completely out it's all up to the ponies to take you to the higher top speeds.
 
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#21 ·
Installed the 20's in my Kodi. Got around 7-800 miles on the de-greeezzzze and weight change. Really like the change. Much better low end and mid range power. Never needed low gear.
Only lost about 1-2 miles per gallon. In South Dakota my Kodi and two 2015 Grizz 700's were within pennies when we fill up.
I didn't change the stock spring out. I'm pretty sure it is the same as a Griz spring.
Will be Franken shaving the primary this winter. I'll find out what the spring force is then.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Thanks for the feedback guys.

I didn't change the stock spring out. I'm pretty sure it is the same as a Griz spring.
Will be Franken shaving the primary this winter. I'll find out what the spring force is then.
You are correct. According to the yamaha part lists, the 708cc Kodiak and Grizzly (16-18), as well as the previous generation 686cc Grizzly (07 to 15) all use the same 90501-650A0-00 Spring.

It would be great to finally have someone documentat the stock 700 spring forces.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Just a few corrections. Found my original speed test notes.(Though I lost them) My speeds were slightly off. Also haven't been able to reproduce the 95 km/h runs with my current set up. Keep topping out at 92km/h on flat ground. Probably did the 95km/h in slight grades or really strong winds at my back. lol . Just to keep things as accurate as possible, here's my data with the corrections.


Stock 16g weights and spring, no shims
99km/h (61.5mph)

Stock weights and spring +1.5mm shim
92km/h (57mph)

Stock weights, EPI orange spring + 1.5 mm shims
89km/h (55mph)

18g weights, EPI orange spring + 1.5 mm shims
92km/h (57mph)
 
#25 · (Edited)
Just goes to show how you set up YOUR machine for YOUR needs. I read so many threads about combining shim, stiffer spring, and Much lighter weights. We assume one size fits all. Mite be fine to a hardcore muder with hardcore mud tires but for alot of us, that's just not the right set up.
 
#26 ·
I am looking for similar results for my '13 700 eps se as Vincent got for his 550. Since mine is a 700 what weights and spring along with a 1.5mm shim will give me comparable results?
 
#27 ·
Don't change your weights. Just get the shims and an EPI purple spring and you'll be good to go.
 
#31 ·
I only want to tear it apart one time(not even once, might check with dealer to do it) so that is why I thought to do the shims, spring, and weight all at one time. I do not want to be running high rpms if I can do something to curb that situation and I thought that was what the weight change helps.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Don't change the weights. Your stock 700 weights are already on the heavy side at 20.5 g each vs the 550's stock 16g weights.
You simply can't predict the need to change weights till after you drive it, otherwise your engine mite be off it's power band and more prone to bogging. The majority of owners with your generation of 700 do the shim and spring and end up leaving the weights alone.
 
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#33 ·
ok thanks for all the replies and advice. I am just going to try the 1.5mm shim and the purple spring, now are there different brands of shims and springs and if so which are the best and where to buy them?
 
#34 ·
#36 ·
Vincent..
I've been rethinking some of my thoughts about CVT mods. Since the Grizzlies and the new Kodis with 20g weights, after the bog, will spin the tires off on launch. I'm thinking common trail riders, riders that ride a wide variety of trails, not deep mudders. They really don't need to lower the gear ratio to 2.8 or 3.0 especially with shims. These riders need good hill and rock climbing not the super extreme stuff, this can easily done with a pretty much stock set up. They also want good cruising rpm's. Again stock setup. So considering this I'm thinking that maybe the best solution would be to add the next heavier spring and not add shims or change out the weights. The Kodi 708 is an exception those 30g weights have to go.
When you first launch the Griz the sudden torque for a second slings the weights out quickly this raises tha belt in the primary while it digs the belt into the secondary. Don't know exactly but I would guess that the ratio might change from 2.4 to 2.1. This could very by how much weight is on the rig. After the shock the secondary spring pushes the ratio back to 2.4. The slight bog.
The next heavier spring counter the launch torque in the lower gear longer. Plus it may hold back the CVT slowing the shift out until the can engine can crank up the torque.

My unqualified 2.0162¢
 
#38 · (Edited)
When you first launch the Griz the sudden torque for a second slings the weights out quickly this raises tha belt in the primary while it digs the belt into the secondary. Don't know exactly but I would guess that the ratio might change from 2.4 to 2.1. This could very by how much weight is on the rig. After the shock the secondary spring pushes the ratio back to 2.4. The slight bog.
The next heavier spring counter the launch torque in the lower gear longer. Plus it may hold back the CVT slowing the shift out until the can engine can crank up the torque.

My unqualified 2.0162¢
This does not happen. Remove your sheave cover and go for a ride. At no time will you see your weights snap your belt into a higher ratio off the line. That initial lag has more to do with the nature of the cvt & wet clutch design then anything else
 
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